The Kubernetes Effect: Abdel Sghiouar on Modernizing Infrastructure and Communities



In this episode of the Open at Intel podcast, host Katherine Druckman chats with Google’s Abdel Sghiouar about his work in the Kubernetes world, being a cloud native road warrior, and his thoughts on where the ecosystem goes from here. Abdel shares his transition from a working in a data center role at Google to consulting and finally into developer relations, emphasizing the importance of in-person interactions and learning from community engagements. He reflects on Kubernetes' evolution, its application beyond traditional computing environments, and the shift towards more developer-friendly infrastructure management tools. We also explore the cultural and technological shifts within the tech community, stressing the perpetual relevance of foundational computing skills, the potential of emerging technologies like WASM, and the critical nature of security in development practices.  


“It might be easier going forward. We might get to a point where it'll become a layer in the infrastructure that you don't care about, and your cloud will become a Kubernetes API across the board.” – Abdel Sghiouar 

Katherine Druckman: Hey, Abdel, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule that we were just discussing before I hit record. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Thank you for having me. This is fun. 

Katherine Druckman: First, I wondered if you might introduce yourself a bit and describe your podcast. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I'm a cloud developer advocate at Google. I've been at Google for 10 years, going on 11, working mostly on Kubernetes and GKE. And yes, I do the Kubernetes Podcast by Google,  with  Kaslin Fields from Seattle. 

Katherine Druckman: I have heard your podcast. It's quite popular. I saw you posted some interesting stats about how changing the cadence of it has affected your listener stats, which I find fascinating as a fellow podcaster. 

Abdel Sghiouar: We took it over in 2022. 2023 was our first year doing it end-to-end, for a full year. We also switched a bunch of things, including how we collect analytics around download numbers and followers. The previous host used to do it weekly. We try to do biweekly, so two episodes per month. This year, we're doing something special in June for the 10th anniversary of Kubernetes. 

Katherine Druckman: Oh, cool. 

Abdel Sghiouar: We're trying to stick with our biweekly schedule. I just published an episode yesterday from the day we're recording. 

Katherine Druckman: Who knows when people will get to hear you? I post these once a week, so it takes a while. 

Abdel Sghiouar: The last episode was Envoy with Matt Klein from Lyft, or used to be at Lyft, and that's where he created Envoy, which is one of the most popular open source projects. 

From Data Centers to Kubernetes

Katherine Druckman: Cool. Tell me, what else do you do? You are the definition of a road warrior. How do you do this? I know it's important to communicate with developers and teach all the things you do, but how are you doing this? 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's a particularly good question. I like traveling. The background story is that when I started working at Google 10 years ago, I was working in a data center in Belgium. Google has two types of infrastructure. There is everything data center, that's where we have Gmail and search and all these services, and there is our CD and constant delivery network, so that's where YouTube comes from. When you're streaming your favorite high-definition cat video, it doesn't stream from a Google data center. It streams from a server somewhere close to you. I was on the team, and at some point, I was leading the team that takes care of that infrastructure in EMEA. We had a divide-and-conquer strategy, so we spliced EMEA into countries. We had people assigned to countries and we would just go whenever there was work that needed attention.  

By work, which means sometimes maintenance, sometimes we'd add capacity, deploy new stuff, and try new things. I started traveling back in the day, mostly for business and then started mixing fun into it. Then I joined the professional services, which is the consulting part of Google, and I was covering EMEA for Kubernetes. That also meant going places because of customers. 

And then with DevRel, especially in EMEA, there are small conferences here compared to the U.S., because in the U.S. you have small numbers of excessively big conferences. Dev Access is two thousand people, and All Things Open is 4,000 people. There is one conference you're not familiar with called DevOx. It's a series of conferences across France, the UK, Greece, Belgium, and Morocco. This is a three-day conference in Poland and Ukraine, but it's virtual now. This is a two or three-day conference, and sometimes they overlap because they're all called DevOx. They're all organized by different people, but they overlap. For example, in April I'm going to do DevOx France and DevOx Greece the same week. 

Katherine Druckman: Oh, wow. 

Abdel Sghiouar: You just submit, get accepted, and try to make it happen. 

The Evolution and Impact of Kubernetes

Katherine Druckman: Have you been involved in Kubernetes? We just talked about the 10th anniversary. Have you been involved since the beginning? 

Abdel Sghiouar: No, I started in Kubernetes in 2017. 

Katherine Druckman: Oh, okay. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It was the first release in 2014, so I started working on Kubernetes officially in 2017 when I joined Cloud. I've been a CNCF ambassador for a year now when they rebooted the program. I am involved a little bit with the small local community things, the meetups, and you have KCDs, like the Kubernetes Community Days. I get involved with those, help organize them, and speak at them. I worked in the Nordics because I'm based in Sweden. 

Katherine Druckman: That's very cool. I feel like the last 10 years have flown by. I feel like Kubernetes is still a new thing, but it's very much not a new thing. I feel like it caught fire about five years ago. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Yes. 

Katherine Druckman: When you were first getting involved, it wasn't quite the thing that it is now, was it? 

Abdel Sghiouar: It was different because when I got involved, many just used Kubernetes to run backend apps and APIs. Back in 2017, the jobs API was still in beta or alpha. Initially, people used it to just run web apps or backends or front-ends or whatever. I was involved initially with the underlying infrastructure piece. Kubernetes as an abstraction layer, of course, must interface with many things to provision the nodes, get the networking together, and get the security stuff together. So that was my involvement because that's my background, and because I'm coming from the data center world. Before that, I was doing sysadmin work where, for me, I immediately understood the value proposition of not having to do automation myself. 

Katherine Druckman: Okay, sure. 

Abdel Sghiouar: No more Bash, no more Sable, no more Chef. It's like a find and forget. 

Katherine Druckman: No more Bash? 

Abdel Sghiouar: I still love Bash. I'm still a Bash developer. 

Katherine Druckman: That's funny. Yeah, I worked with Kubernetes only briefly in my hands-on career, before I transitioned over to podcasting. I understand the value proposition, but never really felt like I was good at it. I wasn't doing it long enough to feel proficient if that makes sense. I was just talking to Divya Mohan of SUSE who does documentation, and I just remember thinking, wow, wish I'd known you then. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's an exceptionally good point. The thing I always say is, it's not for everyone, right? It's not a developer-friendly tool. 

Katherine Druckman: No, it's not. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's not good for developers. 

Katherine Druckman: I was the developer. I was not the infrastructure person. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. 

Katherine Druckman: I was pretending. 

Abdel Sghiouar: We are getting now to a stage where people care about Kubernetes the way they were supposed to care about it on day one. It's an API for your infrastructure. You call and you say, "Run this thing for me. I don't care where it runs. Restart it when it fails. Scale it up when I have a load, scale it down when I don't have a load. Give me a load balancer," and that's as much as I care about as a developer. 

Katherine Druckman: Here's a silly question, but I'm desperate to know the answer from you. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Tell me? 

Katherine Druckman: The command, K-U-B-E-C- 

Abdel Sghiouar: Kubectl? 

Katherine Druckman: That's how you pronounce it? 

Abdel Sghiouar: That's how I pronounce it. I noticed some people argue it should be kube-cuddle? 

Katherine Druckman: I thought it was kube-control, that it's documented somewhere. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Well, it means kube-control, right? But I say kubectl. 

Katherine Druckman: But nobody says that. I hear kube-cuddle, I hear kubectl. I hear other things, and I don't even know where those come from. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Kube-control. I think some people say kube-control. Often when I work with people who are hands-on Kubernetes, they create an alias 

Katherine Druckman: I use K. 

Abdel Sghiouar: K, exactly. 

Katherine Druckman: Then K got pods, and everything has an error. Why? Oh my. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Then you realize you are pointed to the wrong cluster. 

Katherine Druckman: That was my life. A lot of crashed local environments, and headaches, but it's a learning experience. That's how we get better. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Yes, it's interesting for me when people in the tech industry have opinions that are just... This is not a hot take. 

Katherine Druckman: Absolutely. You don't say. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. And of course, I also have my own opinions. I have a problem when people are dismissive of technology. They don't want to learn something, and they still have opinions about why that thing is not good. 

Katherine Druckman: Yes. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I put together a proposal for All Things Open called “This is Why We Cannot Have Nice Things.” 

Katherine Druckman: That's a good title. That applies to so many things, frankly. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's about how there are so many intelligent, clever people, building so many abstraction layers to make life easier, and people still find opportunities to say, "Oh, but Kubernetes is not good." And I'm like, but why? 

Katherine Druckman: It's just a tool, right? 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. 

Katherine Druckman: It is funny how people have such strong opinions about things that are designed to make your life easier, to make tasks easier, to make all these things that make the world go round easier. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. 

Katherine Druckman: Yet people have very strong opinions, and they want to go back to whatever the world was before the thing, or they want to do something different, or create a new thing. And it is funny. It is what makes us who we are. I often wonder if this is something, so I go back to the open source world, and somebody I used to work with used to say, "What did computer people do before computers?" 
You can't see my air quotes with my fingers, but what did we do? It's a certain type of person and a certain type of personality that is a true geek, right? Be it developers, infrastructure people, or whatever it is, all of us who engage are very opinionated people. 

Abdel Sghiouar: People were opinionated a long time ago. They just didn't have the internet to express their opinions. 

Katherine Druckman: That's true. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Whatever opinions you have, you just keep them to yourself. Now that we have Twitter or X, it gives people the opportunity to hide behind the keyboard and then write. Opinions are fine. I have a problem when people phrase an opinion in a hurtful way. 

Katherine Druckman: That's fair. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Against something without realizing there are real humans behind it. 

Katherine Druckman: That's true. The developers are actual people. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. 

Katherine Druckman: ... I guess, a blessing and a curse. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. I just saw a tweet the other day, which was like, “Are Kubernetes not good for AI?” And I'm like, sure, okay. 

Katherine Druckman: What does that even mean? 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. That's an opinion. Please. The interesting thing is that when you are debating with people, which I stopped doing because it's just a waste of time. Debating on Twitter is useless because you cannot get context. Having a face-to-face conversation, if somebody tells you Kubernetes is not good for AI, you can just say, "Please elaborate. Tell me why you think what you're thinking." On Twitter, you're limited to 240 characters. I always go back to numbers. I'm a data-driven person. KubeCon is growing. We're at 12,000 people this year. 

Katherine Druckman: Massively. Here right now, there are 12,000. 

Abdel Sghiouar: That's the estimate. 

Katherine Druckman: I wondered. I hadn't heard yet. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I was spending time together with the CTO, Chris, yesterday, and he said it's 12,000, estimated around 12,000 people. 

Katherine Druckman: That seems right. It's very packed. 

Addressing the Complexity of Kubernetes for Newcomers

Abdel Sghiouar: And I think you have seen these stats before. Every year when they report about KubeCon, more than half are always first timers. 

Katherine Druckman: Yes. The first time I ever went to KubeCon was the last KubeCon. This is only my second one. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Oh, wow. Here you go. 

Katherine Druckman: I didn't have a particular reason to go. I should have back when I was struggling myself, but yes, I hadn't gone. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's interesting because I was discussing with Chris, and he said that one of the reasons that he has been told is the fact that companies would rotate their employees so they will not send the same people every year. 

Katherine Druckman: That makes sense. 

Abdel Sghiouar: To give everybody an opportunity. So that's why you have a lot of first timers, which means there is interest, people care about it, and it's growing. The community is growing. The software itself is growing. 

Fundamentals to Cloud Transition 

Katherine Druckman: Yes, absolutely. 

Abdel Sghiouar: When was the last time there was software released three times per year? If you think about it, three times is not a lot. Every four months, you have a new release of Kubernetes. Yes, this is a community, and the software is not going to disappear. It might be easier going forward. It is already easier, but we might get to a point where it'll become a layer in the infrastructure that you don't care about. It'll be pushed down the stack. 

Katherine Druckman: Something else is managing it for you, and you don't have to think about it. 

Abdel Sghiouar: And your cloud will become a Kubernetes API across the board. I'm not talking only about compute. Your database will become a Kubernetes thing. Your queue system will become a Kubernetes thing. Your monitoring dashboard will be a Kubernetes thing. You will write a Kubernetes object, deploy it somewhere, something gets provisioned for you, and we just use it and move on with your life. 

Katherine Druckman: Here's a question for you. How do you feel about training up? You talked about the new attendees, right? People who are first-time attendees. What do you think about the explosive growth of something like Kubernetes, or just the cloud native landscape in general? When you think about new users, people who are new to this space, as things become more abstracted and as things become more complex, how do you train up people in their various disciplines when it gets to be so complicated that people have a hard time finding an entry point? 

Abdel Sghiouar: That is an incredibly good question. My default answer to this question is typically, if you are in computer science, studying computer science or just getting into this world, focus on the fundamentals. The fundamentals don't change. 

Katherine Druckman: That's fair. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Operating systems function the same way they've been functioning for the last 25 years, and they haven't changed in such a meaningful way that the average developer, DevOps, or MLOps, will have to learn something that changed in the last 10 years. The way I see it is that things function the same way for 99% of people. There is 1% of the people that need to know more because they have unique use cases, and incredibly low latency systems for trading and streaming. These are unique examples. Everybody will have to stick with the high level that everybody knows. Getting to that point is just the fundamentals: operating systems, programming, networking, you name it. The fundamentals of how computers work. 

Katherine Druckman: What do you say to people who have those fundamentals, but have been working in an environment that is not a cloud? They've been working in a different environment for a few years, and they missed the boat. They were not in this world as Kubernetes rose and the projects around it. Now, they find themselves feeling a little bit left behind. 

Abdel Sghiouar: That's a very good question. 

Katherine Druckman: I had this conversation recently, so it's on my mind. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's a valid point. First, I don't think anyone has missed the boat. I think because these systems and these tools we're talking about are going to be here for a while, you can always learn them. A good strategy, if you want to catch up with the boat, is just to find a job in a company that uses these tools day-to-day. The way we could learn is just to get exposed to things. I used to say, okay, learn at home, do stuff at home, build your own Kubernetes clusters. That's all fine, but you must have real use cases. 

Katherine Druckman: It's not a means to an end. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. You must have actual use cases. You must have actual problems you have to face. You must debug things. That's how you learn. And then apply your fundamental knowledge and analytic skills, which developers are good at doing. A conversation I would have all the time with developers always revolves around DNS. 

Katherine Druckman: Yes, that is true. Everybody says that.

Abdel Sghiouar: Which is such a fundamental thing.

Katherine Druckman: It's always DNS. That is a truth in life. 

Abdel Sghiouar: This is such a fundamental thing that everybody needs to know but doesn't seem like anybody does. In my head, because I'm coming from infrastructure, for me, it just feels natural. Back to your question, I don't think that there is such a thing as missing the boat. I think you can pick up whatever you feel like in your career and just learn, and you will eventually understand things, and you will eventually get to a point where you will have as much understanding as anybody else. Learning takes time. Also, I'm not getting any younger myself. I'm close to my forties. And one thing I realize is that the more you grow, the more it becomes difficult for you to learn because you become very selective about how you learn, both about the topics and the way you learn them. Learning becomes boring sometimes. 

Katherine Druckman: I understand what you mean. You're set in your ways.

The Never-Ending Journey of Learning and Adaptation

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. Life gets busy and you have other priorities, and you try to push things away as much as possible and not to have to do them until you have or need them. I don't think people should feel left alone or left behind, because the reality is, as these cloud native things, our systems, tools, and software that we're using today, as they're adopted by Enterprise and by old-school companies, they're going to need people to maintain them.  

It's a coincidence that we're in France. I used to live in Belgium for a while, and my friend used to live in France, and his partner is French. And here in France, they have something called pôle emploi, that is a French government entity that helps unemployed people find jobs. One of the things they do is training for people who want to do reconversion. This person was doing marketing before, and they were offered training to learn COBOL

Katherine Druckman: Oh, COBOL? Wow, okay. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Because banks are struggling to hire COBOL developers. 

Katherine Druckman: I believe so. 

Abdel Sghiouar: They went to pôle emploi, put together a program, brought in a bunch of young people, and they taught them COBOL for nine months, and now they're COBOL developers. 

Katherine Druckman: That's wild. I don't think I've heard the word COBOL in a while. 

Abdel Sghiouar: During COVID, there was a press conference where the mayor of New York put out a PSA asking people, "If you're a COBOL developer, we need you." Because the unemployment system in New York was built in COBOL, and because of the load, it was going down and they needed people to maintain it and fix it. 

Katherine Druckman: That's it. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I'm not comparing Kubernetes to COBOL. Far from it. I'm saying that when technology becomes so widely adopted, there are always the early adopters, the middle stack, and the long tail. The long tail has people who are going to need people who know stuff. It doesn't matter where you are in your journey. You can be an early adopter, you can be in the middle, or you can be at the long tail. 

Katherine Druckman: That's a good observation, especially in terms of sustainability. Not in the environmental sense, but in the project sense, if everybody's chasing the new thing, then the old thing may get left behind. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. 

Katherine Druckman: And find themselves in a bit of a pickle.  

The Future of Tech: Kubernetes, AI, and Beyond

Katherine Druckman: Tell me, I know you give so many talks, what are you excited about right now? 

Abdel Sghiouar: I could say AI like everybody else. 

Katherine Druckman: Everybody's excited about AI. What do you think, is Kubernetes good for AI? 

Abdel Sghiouar: That is a particularly good question. Go to my Twitter and you'll figure it out. There are things like WASM that have become a big deal since last year. I'm excited to see how that will pan out in the Kubernetes world, where we're going to get to a point where we don't run containers anymore. It's just WASM modules. 

Katherine Druckman: Interesting. 

Abdel Sghiouar: But it starts to run, starts to upscale up and down. Just because I am an infrastructure nerd, I see all these problems with GPU shortages that we're facing with AI and ML. I'm excited to see what's going to be the next Nvidia or the next whatever company making chips. 

Katherine Druckman: Hopefully, Intel. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Hopefully, Intel. That's an incredibly good point. 

Katherine Druckman: We do like our chips. 

Abdel Sghiouar: We must get to a point where we don't rely on a single manufacturer, right? 

Katherine Druckman: COVID taught us many things, and the supply chain is one of them. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It's one of the major ones, right? I think in the U.S., they're putting together strategies about doing chip manufacturing in countries, so they don't rely on other countries anymore. I find that interesting. I think it's a good thing. 

Katherine Druckman: I think so, too. 

Abdel Sghiouar: There is also, security. It will be a problem across the board, and we're going to keep hearing about it. Yesterday I was at Frogs and Friends by JFrog, and their CTO was doing a talk, and they found some super interesting backdoors in Hugging Face, and some vulnerable ML models. 

Katherine Druckman: That's interesting. 

Abdel Sghiouar: They managed to put together a demo where they can overtake a developer laptop by injecting a vulnerable model into Hugging Face that the developer will download eventually. 

Katherine Druckman: Wow. I'd like to see that. Is it recorded? 

Abdel Sghiouar: It was cool. No, it was a small dinner thing. They're going to announce some stuff. I don't want to say more than what was said yesterday. 

Katherine Druckman: Okay. I'll keep an eye out. I'll watch your Twitter. Everyone follow Abdel on Twitter

Abdel Sghiouar: Security in general is going to be an overarching item across everything we're doing today and what we're going to do in the future. And then the last thing is running Kubernetes in places that you haven't been thinking about doing it in before. 

Katherine Druckman: For example? 

Abdel Sghiouar: Boats. 

Katherine Druckman: Sure. Why not? 

Abdel Sghiouar: Kubernetes on cruises, the company's doing that. Kubernetes on airplanes, Kubernetes on cars, all these self-driven cars, need ML models. You can use Kubernetes to orchestrate those workloads. Kubernetes at the edge. One of the biggest American fast-food companies, without mentioning names, they're experimenting with having Kubernetes clusters in their stores to run everything in the store. 

Katherine Druckman: Sure, devices. That's interesting. 

Abdel Sghiouar: There are several use cases like that. Those are all exciting because they're trying to solve the same problems, but they have various constraints around connectivity, compute power, and available compute power storage. 

The Simplicity Behind Complex Tech Solutions

Katherine Druckman: Some problems are universal, right?  It's nice to see that, to draw the lines between all these things. 

Abdel Sghiouar: One of my favorite things from the Kubernetes podcast was we recorded with an entity in Norway called NAVs, which is the Norwegian Labour and Welfare Administration. They handle pensions and healthcare for the country, and they do things in open source. They have a tool called NAIS. It's pronounced nice, but it's written N-A-I-S, which is an abstraction layer on top of Kubernetes. For those of you listening, if you know Knative, it's like Knative, but before. They have a platform team that is deploying NAIS on top of Kubernetes, so developers can just use higher abstraction definitions to deploy apps. I was talking to them, and my question was, "As a platform team, how do you know when a feature becomes something that all the teams need so you can build it into the platform, instead of just letting everybody figure things out by themselves?" And the honest answer I got from one of the guests was, "99% of developers don't need anything special. They just need a place to run applications. They need a database and queues and logs and metrics, and that's it." 

Katherine Druckman: A fair observation. 

Abdel Sghiouar: It was an interesting observation. If you think about it, that's true. 

Katherine Druckman: Edge cases are called edge cases for a reason. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Exactly. 

Looking Ahead

Katherine Druckman: Is there anything that you wish I had asked you that I didn't? 

Abdel Sghiouar: No, my Twitter is @boredabdel. That's where you should go. Follow me. I share quite a lot of opinions, like everybody on Twitter. 

Katherine Druckman: Great. That's what it's for. Do you use the Metaverse at all? Are you on Mastodon or any of those? 

Abdel Sghiouar: I have an invitation for one of those. I have a Mastodon account. I don't use it that often. 

Katherine Druckman: Do you use BlueSky

Abdel Sghiouar: BlueSky, I have an invitation. I'm going to check it out. 

Katherine Druckman: I keep forgetting to use BlueSky. I have an account, but it takes too much time. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I'm mostly active on LinkedIn. 

Katherine Druckman: I like LinkedIn. It's becoming increasingly relevant and interesting. People are posting good stuff there. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I hope they create a new interface because that GUI is incredibly old. 

Katherine Druckman: A little bit. 


Abdel Sghiouar: And I hope they do a respectable job at doing it. I'm excited. 2024 is the year of Kubernetes. 

Katherine Druckman: Or Linux on the desktop. Sorry, that's an inside joke in my head. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I have Linux on desktop. I have a desktop. 

Katherine Druckman: Awesome. What is your favorite distribution? 

Abdel Sghiouar: I'm an Ubuntu user. 

Katherine Druckman: Of course. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I have a history with Ubuntu. 

Katherine Druckman: Gateway drug. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Yes. 

Katherine Druckman: For Linux on the Desktop. A hundred years ago I worked for Linux Journal

Abdel Sghiouar: Oh, wow. 

Katherine Druckman: When I first started, it was six-something. I think eight. Hardy Heron, I think, was my favorite. I still miss that graphic. Anyway. 

Abdel Sghiouar: That's nice. 

Katherine Druckman: I was an Ubuntu user for a long time. 

Abdel Sghiouar: I have a history with Ubuntu. I was part of their community leadership in Morocco where I'm from, a long time ago. 

Katherine Druckman: Cool. 

Abdel Sghiouar: They used to have those things called LUGs, Local User Groups. I was leading the local community in Morocco for two years. 

Katherine Druckman: That's a good experience.

Abdel Sghiouar: It was cool. 

Katherine Druckman: Thank you so much for joining me and chatting, and solving the problems of the world, as we do here behind our microphones. 

Abdel Sghiouar: Thank you for having me. 

Katherine Druckman: You've been listening to Open at Intel. Be sure to check out more from the Open at Intel podcast at, and @OpenAtIntel on Twitter and on LinkedIn. We hope you join us again next time to geek out about open source. 


Abdel Sghiouar is a Cloud Developer Advocate at @Google Cloud. His focus areas are GKE/Kubernetes, Service Mesh, and Serverless. Abdel started his career in data centers and infrastructure in Morocco before moving to Google's largest EU data center in Belgium. Then in Sweden, he joined Google Cloud Professional Services and spent five years working with Google Cloud customers on architecting and designing large-scale distributed systems before turning to advocacy and community work. You can follow him at @boredabdel

About the Author

Katherine Druckman, an Intel Open-Source Evangelist, hosts the podcasts Open at Intel, Reality 2.0, and FLOSS Weekly. A security and privacy advocate, software engineer, and former Digital Director of Linux Journal, she's a long-time champion of open-source and open standards. She is a software engineer and content creator with over a decade of experience in engineering, content strategy, product management, user experience, and technology evangelism.